Curse

moriz · Oct 24, 2007, 12:50 PM // 12:50

with the utter obliteration of the beloved SoD, the monk meta is now more or less up in the air again. currently, people simply replaced the SoD monk with an RC monk. while the real strength of RC is that it is never bad, i don't believe there are enough conditions in the current metagame for RC to be that useful; especially with so many people slotting a draw somewhere in the build. therefore, perhaps a new elite is in order.

the problem is: what elite? other than LoD and RC, the current selection of monk elites are pretty lacklustre. BLight has been surpassed by NF powercreep. ZB is generally bad at the stand, especially with a LoD monk there as well. divert hexes.... not enough hexes.

so the current conclusion that i've reached is: peace and harmony. in the current meta, the ability to slap a more or less permanent +1 energy regen on both monks allows for some interesting options. it is also not particularly hard to slot succor somewhere on the build (for example, a warrior, or one of those signet mesmers) for a more or less permanent +2 energy regen on both monks. this opens up the secondary professions on both monks. it's like having glyph of lesser energy glued onto both bars, while allowing them to go to a different secondary (such as assassin for return, warrior for disciplined stance).

i've not looked into elites from secondaries yet. maybe that will change the picture a little bit. so... what do you think?

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 24, 2007, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Peace and harmony is terrible.

Also SoD isn't nearly 'utterly obliterated' it's nowhere nearly as good as it used to be but it's still viable and definately a hell of a lot better than PnH.

RC definately isn't required and the reason it's mainly used instead of SoD atm is lack of alternatives, what it does accomplish is keeping sword warrior out of the metagame.

Monks aren't really limited by energy these days, most kills are a result of shutdown (e.g. diversion, kd) while there is some pressure builds going around the main reason they get kills is because they shut down LoD for a period of time, and without LoD there is simply no way to recover from pressure, as it stands no amount of energy regeneration is gonna solve that.

moriz · Oct 24, 2007, 01:49 PM // 13:49

hmm, SoD is currently not a whole lot better than guardian. i would go so far as to say that SoD is now strictly worse than guardian. the only thing it has over guardian is the faster cast, but that can be remedied with better protting and 40/40 swaps.

peace and harmony certainly isn't in the same league as RC. the thing is, without a metagame that strictly favours RC, peace and harmony allows for some interesting choices, allowing both monks to run more self defense than what they could before.

what would be interesting is a match between mirror builds, except one of the builds feature a PnH monk over the RC monk. it pretty much comes down to whether the lack of RC will break the game, or the additional +1 energy and potentially extra defense on monks wear out the other team faster.

perhaps at lower levels of gvg this will be used. you're right, at high levels, +1 energy regen probably won't break the game... but we'll never know until it shows up on obs mode.

Shuuda · Oct 24, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53

I don't think PnH is powerful enough to see usage in high end PvP, even if it did get buffed, enchantment stripping would become more common.

Thomas.knbk · Oct 24, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

People still run SoD. It still makes people invincible, just on a 10s recharge now. The truth is, there simply aren't enough good monk elites. There are a lot of elites that would be good with a slight buff (BL, LS, I can even see a buffed healing hands see play), but that's not really useful for the current monk meta. People continue to run RC and SoD, not because they're good (right now they aren't), but because there's nothing better. What this game seriously lacks is an elite small prot.

moko · Oct 24, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

another LoD?

Sk8tborderx · Oct 24, 2007, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

another LoD?

That is what I was going to say.

I don't understand why teams haven't just started to use another LoD. The majority of the time the only way to score kills, or to wipe a party is to shut the LoD down, so why not take 2?

moriz · Oct 24, 2007, 02:19 PM // 14:19

generally because it will have to be some seriously huge pressure for two LoDs to be effective. most of the time, 1 is enough to keep the team up, and the second copy becomes useless. i suppose you can work it out between the two monks so they alternate it, but that still doesn't justify two of them.

shutting down LoD will make the team easier to break. however, it's usually easier to shut down the aegis chain, or the ward, or the bsurge to break the team. LoD by itself, or even two LoDs, can't keep the team up without some sort of passive defense around it.

Sk8tborderx · Oct 24, 2007, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

generally because it will have to be some seriously huge pressure for two LoDs to be effective. most of the time, 1 is enough to keep the team up, and the second copy becomes useless. i suppose you can work it out between the two monks so they alternate it, but that still doesn't justify two of them.

I have seen a lot more high pressure builds lately, and 90% of the time when a team wipes it is because LoD got shutdown. With the lack of good elites for a prot monk to take anymore, there is really no reason not to take 2.

Quote:

shutting down LoD will make the team easier to break. however, it's usually easier to shut down the aegis chain, or the ward, or the bsurge to break the team.

It is a lot easier and faster to just wipe them by shutting down LoD.

Quote:

LoD by itself, or even two LoDs, can't keep the team up without some sort of passive defense around it.

That is only true if your monks are bad, and you don't know how to play defensively as a team until you can get your passive defense back.

If you take out LoD though, you can still pressure through all the passive defense, and it will lead to either a team wipe, or when the monk gets LoD back, they are both hurting for energy and their team is usually pushed back to their base.

BlackEagle · Oct 24, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

The real trouble with sod is that even though it is invulnerability for 10 seconds, for 10 seconds the other spikes aren't going to be protted with sod. Sod is still workable, especially considering most guilds don't call half/fake spikes to waste the sod. The other thing is that most the time the added passive defence that is around in every single build can generally stop the ones that sod is on recharge for. RC is just run because, whatever you face, there will be conditions of some description, and there are no real alternatives. I think sod isn't run more because of the psychologically aspect of it has been nerfed, so people think they have to stop running it.

The trouble with running 2 lods is that the current backlines are hybrid, and revolve around lod on one, gift on the other with prots on both. It doesn't mean it doesn't work, it just means you have to change it around from what you're used to doing. That's the main reason more people don't run dual lods, because it would be completely changing from the current set up. Having said that, a lot of the time dual lods is just being lazy, and instead of stopping what's shutting down your lod, you just run another.

And peace and harmony is never going to see competitive play in its current form, it's just awful. Life sheath is equally bad because it doesn't stack with other prots. ZB doesn't work on stand because if the target is at the 40%/45% for ZB, they'll be taken above it by lod so it's basically a heal other. If they're any lower than that you're gonna want to cast something else first probably. It's only really useful when they're already protted hugely and is basically a red bar filler, which lod would do in time anyway. There aren't enough hexes for DH, and in any case, if you face hex heavy, if all the hexes are getting through DH isn't going to save you. That's the fundemental flaw with that skill, you need to stop the hexes being applied against hex heavy really. They're always going to have more hexes than you have removal. Blessed light has the problem that it needs atleast 2 of the conditions to be met for it to resemble any form of energy effeciency. Which basically leaves you with sod/rc.

moriz · Oct 24, 2007, 02:59 PM // 14:59

a team can survive for a while without LoD and depending on passive defense and playing defensive. a team cannot survive without at least some passive defense, even if you run 2 LoDs.

Sk8tborderx · Oct 24, 2007, 03:04 PM // 15:04

I have ran builds with no passive defense other then aegis, you don't need anything other then that as long as your team understands when and how to play defensively. What you would put in the team for passive defense you can put in more shutdown and offense to make them play defensively, which takes off a lot of pressure from your team.

You cannot say the same about LoD, if your LoD is shutdown the majority of the game you will lose unless the other team is really bad and doesn't know how to pressure.

tyrant rex · Oct 24, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

I have ran builds with no passive defense other then aegis, you don't need anything other then that as long as your team understands when and how to play defensively. What you would put in the team for passive defense you can put in more shutdown and offense to make them play defensively, which takes off a lot of pressure from your team.

You cannot say the same about LoD, if your LoD is shutdown the majority of the game you will lose unless the other team is really bad and doesn't know how to pressure.

the fact that you ran those builds dosent matter considering the stats of your guild r750 369 W 347 L

Byron · Oct 24, 2007, 05:07 PM // 17:07

I'm not seeing the argument around 2 lod monks tbh. As said, its the really good monk elite atm, kinda like BL during factions play.
The templates would be pretty easy....14 heal 10 pro 10 div...rof, dismiss, LoD, kiss/words confort, prot spirit/sbond, hex removal, infuse/utility, guardian/utility.

Very basic 2 lod backline, imo:

[skill]light of deliverance[/skill][skill]reversal of fortune[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]words of comfort[/skill][skill]protective spirit[/skill][skill]holy veil[/skill][skill]infuse health[/skill][skill]return[/skill]
[skill]light of deliverance[/skill][skill]reversal of fortune[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]dwayna's kiss[/skill][skill]spirit bond[/skill][skill]holy veil[/skill][skill]guardian[/skill][skill]return[/skill]

And you might say, that's overkill, Byron. And I'd say, no. Besides the obvious effects of your party always being at full health, 2 lods also means map-range splitting is cake.

XiaoTheBlade · Oct 24, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Shield of regen with GoLE is very very nice.

Kyp Jade · Oct 24, 2007, 05:30 PM // 17:30

SoR only halfs damage taken, any reason a monk would use that over SoD?

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 24, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

hmm, SoD is currently not a whole lot better than guardian. i would go so far as to say that SoD is now strictly worse than guardian. the only thing it has over guardian is the faster cast, but that can be remedied with better protting and 40/40 swaps.

Gl catching spikes with guardian, you have SoD once every 10 seconds and in between you still have SB. Not to mention SoD now considerably outlasts guardian.

Quote:

peace and harmony certainly isn't in the same league as RC. the thing is, without a metagame that strictly favours RC, peace and harmony allows for some interesting choices, allowing both monks to run more self defense than what they could before.

Peace and Harmony is BAD, stop suggesting it.

Quote:

what would be interesting is a match between mirror builds, except one of the builds feature a PnH monk over the RC monk. it pretty much comes down to whether the lack of RC will break the game, or the additional +1 energy and potentially extra defense on monks wear out the other team faster.

perhaps at lower levels of gvg this will be used. you're right, at high levels, +1 energy regen probably won't break the game... but we'll never know until it shows up on obs mode.

Energy is largely irrelevant, spikes get protted/infused, pressure gets LoDed, 1 extra energy regen isn't gonna make any difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XiaoTheBlade

Shield of regen with GoLE is very very nice.

SoR is terrible on a stand monk.

Shuuda · Oct 24, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Peace and Harmony is BAD, stop suggesting it.

Indeed, A-net would be better off making small buffs to skill that have a good and balanced potenial, rather than skill that can never be that good without being broken.

twicky_kid · Oct 24, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Indeed, A-net would be better off making small buffs to skill that have a good and balanced potenial, rather than skill that can never be that good without being broken.

Agreed. Energy regen for an elite is generally a bad idea.

Ensign · Oct 24, 2007, 07:53 PM // 19:53

If RC isn't pulling its weight I'm pretty sure you just run another LoD and never ever lose to pressure. They get virtually identical bars, with the only real difference being the choice of big prots, and small prots if used.